How Preplanning Your Funeral Can Benefit You and Your Family - Transcribed
[00:00:00] Pete Waggoner: Hello everybody. And welcome to the good grief podcast for the O’Connell family funeral homes. Check us out online at the O’Connell funeral homes.com today’s show with Michael O’Connell and Amber Miller is going to benefit all of those interested in prearranging. And when I say benefit, there are lots of benefits that come along with it beyond just being organized and square.
[00:00:29] There’s a lot of great things that can impact families in positive ways for those that step up and pre-arrange. So we’re gonna get into all of the details with that and more as we continue the good grief podcast right after.
[00:00:45] More and more people are preplanning their funerals to save their loved ones. The stress of having to plan after an emotional loss, if you are thinking of pre-planning your funeral, but are unsure where to start. You can head over to the website. O’Connell funeral [00:01:00] homes.com for some free resources. There are 10 things you can think about before your funeral PDF comes with a handy worksheet for collecting your thoughts.
[00:01:07] Mike also walks you through the top four reasons for pre-planning in a video, and some of them might even surprise you. When the time comes and you’re ready to take the next step or just need to ask some questions. Our team is here to help take away the guesswork. At any point, you can call the scheduled appointment or to sit down with one of our other qualified pre-planning specialists, head over to the website to check out the resources and to set a no obligation appointment.
[00:01:30] And now back to our podcast.
[00:01:33] Welcome back once again to the good grief podcast. And we’re gonna get into benefits of prearranging. As of course, Amber and Michael who become regular voices here of this podcast is we have worked our tentacles of topics quite well throughout the year of 2022. And we are excited to talk about this is one of my favorites.
[00:01:53] Michael, I think we’ve done this one a couple of times, two or three to be exact. And I think there’s a reason for that because of the importance that [00:02:00] comes into it. So you’ve seen just about everything there could possibly be in this world of what you do. But if you could share, why would someone prearrange their funeral before their death?
[00:02:12] Mike O’Connell: Well, that’s gonna be a litany of different things that some people are gonna be forced to do it because they were told they had something terminal or they are in a, what we would call a spend down with Medicaid. Or they want to have some peace of mind for their children, or they wanna have peace of mind for themselves, or they wanna make sure they get what they want when they die.
[00:02:33] Those are kind of your quick bullet points as to why somebody would.
[00:02:37] Pete Waggoner: And then when you get into an easy disagreement that happens with families, well, no, we want this. No, we want that. And I think we’ve all probably experienced it to some levels because there’s family members that think things should be a different way and how are things represented.
[00:02:53] So the benefit of getting it down on paper and recorded is you can absolutely cut [00:03:00] through a lot of the burdens that can follow that in the family.
[00:03:03] Mike O’Connell: I don’t think, Pete, we’ve had any families that disagreed. I mean, I can think of any.
[00:03:07] Pete Waggoner: Perfect.
[00:03:08] I mean, who would they be? The Waltons, right?
[00:03:11] Mike O’Connell: Yeah, half pint and the Landons but no. I’d almost have to say that’s maybe besides financially or just getting stuff written down, but is family taking away that from the family? Because quite honestly, about six times a year now we have police officers present because people aren’t getting along.
[00:03:31] Pete Waggoner: Wait.
[00:03:31] Mike O’Connell: Yeah.
[00:03:32] Pete Waggoner: Seriously?
[00:03:33] Mike O’Connell: Yes. Okay. No they’re not in uniform.
[00:03:36] Pete Waggoner: But when does this occur?
[00:03:38] Mike O’Connell: During a visitation or funeral, they’re there.
[00:03:40] Pete Waggoner: Are you serious?
[00:03:41] Mike O’Connell: Yeah, mm-hmm. Now we can’t advertise that obviously.
[00:03:44] Pete Waggoner: But, okay. Do you have to hire them or does the family hire them?
[00:03:47] Mike O’Connell: We hire them, but they’re not asking for it because they’re the ones arguing.
[00:03:51] Because if something happens and then we’ve had fist to cuffs at a church before yelling and screaming, somebody threatening somebody’s life. [00:04:00] Oh man. So that’s real stuff in today’s world.
[00:04:03] Pete Waggoner: So how do you know if do you two or as a group to say we better get security detail for this one?
[00:04:10] Or, I mean, do you know going in that this is gonna be combustible? Can you pretty much tell?
[00:04:14] Mike O’Connell: No. I, I mean, it’s when you sit with them and you see the dysfunction and you can see the veins popping out and some of the threats going then, you know, it’s your gut feeling that says, this is a little big for us, any threats that’s gotta be dealt with and both have a right to be there. You know, if you will, if you think of kids fighting, they both have a right. One doesn’t have one over the other one, even if they’re estranged.
[00:04:35] Pete Waggoner: So when you prearrange, how much of that eliminates those issues?
[00:04:40] Mike O’Connell: You’re never gonna eliminate the what got that to be that point.
[00:04:44] There’s gonna be some dysfunction amongst every family and some of it, what it usually comes back to as finances. Let’s be honest. Yeah. And even if somebody says, well, you were never round. Well, maybe so, but if you’re never round, then why should you get a piece of the pie? So it comes back to money as far as [00:05:00] I’m concerned.
[00:05:00] So yeah.
[00:05:02] Amber Miller: And I think there are some people that say, well, you know, my, my family’s pretty tight knit. We’re all. We’re all really close. So I don’t foresee that happening when this death occurs, but grief is its own animal. Right. When grief also starts getting put into the equation, that can change things in an instant, right.
[00:05:21] I can be really, really close with my siblings and with the rest of the family. And then all of a sudden, a death occurs and that changes. So I think you know, prearranging just to make sure that some of those peace of mind and that burden is taken off is just one less thing that can become a sticking point for families and an, and an area of contention.
[00:05:40] Pete Waggoner: Major lightning rod, for sure.
[00:05:42] Amber Miller: Absolutely. Right.
[00:05:43] Mike O’Connell: Well, and quite frequently is that person that died was the glue that held them together. And they were the checks and balance. Yeah. They wouldn’t act that way in front of their mother or their father, but now that they’re gone, the gloves are off and they don’t have anybody to keep them in check.
[00:05:57] So they figure heck with it. I [00:06:00] don’t have to deal with you anymore or be, you know, civil. And so yeah, we sit there and it’s very stressful when you’re sitting in arrangement and two people can’t even talk to each other across the table and they’re throwing hail makers at each other, you know.
[00:06:15] Yeah.
[00:06:16] Pete Waggoner: Bringing the heat so to speak. So finances are a big part of prearranging as we we’re getting into here. And a big reason why some choose to prearrange your funeral is because of medical assistance or someone’s running out of funds and need to continue to pay their monthly fees at a nursing home or facility.
[00:06:34] Some people choose to spend down their assets to become eligible for medical state assistance, which brings me to this question. How would people go about that part of the process in spending down to be eligible.
[00:06:46] Mike O’Connell: Pete, you are doing so well. I’m so proud of you. You have now again, I think this might be our third touching on prearrangements you are sounding like you can do it yourself.
[00:06:55] Pete Waggoner: An expert.
[00:06:55] Mike O’Connell: You are. Yes, absolutely. You have. You have grown in front of us. I am so [00:07:00] proud of you.
[00:07:00] Pete Waggoner: Tenfold. Look at y’all all smiling.
[00:07:02] One of my favorite parts of my year right there. Okay. Yeah, that’s great.
[00:07:05] Seriously from when we started this from now, I mean, how much you have understood the behind the scenes stuff and the funeral business.
[00:07:12] And I think you say it, but I know you mean it. You’re enlightened, but oh, it’s true. Like, you know, I’ll bring it up. This is kind of off the, the board here, but I’ll bring this up to friends about how I enjoy doing this and how much I’ve learned and been enlightened and love the process.
[00:07:30] Do you wanna see what reaction I get?
[00:07:31] Mike O’Connell: I know they’re gonna say, Ooh.
[00:07:34] Pete Waggoner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ooh. They get freaked out and I’m like, you know what I’m doing today, what now I’m ripping off seven podcasts or I’m doing this or whatever I’m doing, right. And they’ll say, well, what’s there to talk about. And I’ll say each year, once a month, we get together and we’ll do 12 topics, but for those 12 topics, there’s 12 topics.
[00:07:58] Mike O’Connell: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:58] Pete Waggoner: I mean, there’s so much to [00:08:00] talk about and so many things to happen. So it’s been incredibly helpful, but I feel like I do have a pretty good understanding of the business, but right. When I think I know I there’s so much more, you guys throw at me, I’m like, okay, I guess I didn’t you’re taking it step by step.
[00:08:12] Yeah. Well, so like in terms of spending down though, I mean, you know, when it comes to money, I think people start to really listen and that’s a big part of the prearranging process, right? In this case, when we were talking about medical assistance.
[00:08:24] Mike O’Connell: Well, okay. So Jennifer O’Neil she’s a elder care law attorney.
[00:08:29] One of the most wisdom things that she said is the mortality rate in Wisconsin. It’s a hundred percent.
[00:08:34] So today, 10 years, two days, 20 years, you’re gonna die at some point and you’re gonna have these fees. If you have the money now pay it, put it aside. Don’t put it off for your kids.
[00:08:50] Pete Waggoner: Is that what’s known as the death tax?
[00:08:52] Mike O’Connell: That’s kind of a general term as state tax, death tax. It’s all gonna, okay, so that’s another topic, but oops.
[00:08:59] [00:09:00] So if you talk to an elder care attorney and set up an estate, some of those things you can forego. But the whole financial part is to set money aside to cover your cost. And then the question gets to be about guaranteed, non-guaranteed.
[00:09:14] Guaranteed simply says, well, you put that money aside, you’ll never pay another penny. All the interest can be kept by the funeral home versus if you have one that stays with the vehicles they’re put in there are gonna far out run inflation. We’ve even kind of, we’re starting to get to the point where we’re really solidified. Matter of fact, our, some of our merchandise has even gone down.
[00:09:37] Because of where we’re at. So we’re really solidifying our pricing and then it makes money. And so I had one, it was about a month ago, and a family in river falls was getting money back and they were just, well, they, they have to, oh, right. Because now we’re having a better lunch and I’m like, no, your trust accumulated that much.
[00:09:56] Well, that can’t be right. Now what did you miss? Didn’t miss [00:10:00] anything. They got a check for 12 hundred. That’s what it does. So the thing of it is for us is we get paid right away. You would think, well, wouldn’t you anyway? Not all the time. No. Do we get stiffed once in a while? We sure do. But the finance with putting it away means it’s gonna be there.
[00:10:15] And if you ever go on assistance and that’s another topic we’ll hit on, but then it’s protected the nursing home or nobody can touch it. It’s always gonna be there. If the funeral home’s even not even there. It’s still gonna be there cuz it’s under your name, social and date of birth. You can move to Topeka, Kansas, and it’s still gonna be there.
[00:10:33] Amber Miller: Absolutely. And I think, a lot of people, especially when they kind of have the initial discussion about going on medical assistance is, well, what can I do? Do I have to cash out all my life insurance policies? Can I gift some of that money to friends and family so that, it looks like my accounts are under a certain amount.
[00:10:51] And while the question, or the answer shall we say is yes and no. And a lot of that has to do with starting an irrevocable [00:11:00] funeral policy. And that that gift that you can give to your loved ones is actually in the shape of a funeral trust. You can’t gift them a brand new car or cash out your checking account and go on a lavish vacation.
[00:11:13] But funeral trusts are the one thing that you can gift to not only yourself when that time comes, but also to your family members.
[00:11:20] Mike O’Connell: Sadly, yeah, she’s absolutely right. You can’t gift money and what that means you can, you can’t. But you can’t, if you’re gonna go on assistance in five years. And should the government look back and say, well, your mom, Pete gave you a check for this and you all these, and you gave all that money away.
[00:11:37] And now you wanna be in assistance. Well, it doesn’t work that way. So they can go back five years. It’s a look back period. So the one thing that you can do, if you’re going on assistance is gift a funeral trust. Now that sounds kind of crazy. It’s not very sexy, but that’s the only way that somebody can gift money now, when they’re looking at assistance is putting money aside for their [00:12:00] children. Children’s spouse, even siblings, that’s one way that you can downsize your finances to the point where you’re on a Medicaid or assistance.
[00:12:09] Pete Waggoner: Got it. Okay. So then are all funeral insurance policies, irrevocable, or I’m sure there’s probably different ways to look at things there too. I’m sure.
[00:12:19] Mike O’Connell: When you put it in two, there’s two different ways, there’s a bank and the banks are right now paying what quarter percent that that’s horrible, or you can do insurance and insurance has incentives and they have higher rate of interest.
[00:12:32] Amber Miller: Well, and I think, some of the interests or insurance policies that we’re using, aren’t irrevocable because of that high interest. And what’s good about the irrevocable policy is that it’s not considered an asset against you. So if you were to go on medical assistance at any point down the road, you wouldn’t be required to cash them out.
[00:12:49] They would just be for funeral expenses and cash. Can’t be cashed out earlier than that though. Some insurance policies are not written in that way.
[00:12:57] Pete Waggoner: So when you’re going through the process during the prearranging process, [00:13:00] and this is happening and you’re sitting with a family and you’re going through all of this, how received is that information?
[00:13:09] Do you find yourselves you know, because sometimes people, you know, we’ve talked other podcasts. Well, I heard this, I heard this. How much do you have to really educate in this process? Because I don’t think the average person knows a dime of this.
[00:13:24] Mike O’Connell: I guess the answer to that is we tell ’em what they need to know at that point.
[00:13:28] Yeah. If you’re not going on assistance or aren’t going to, we really don’t need to go into that. We can tell them about the benefits. To get back to your question too, is they can make it irrevocable or revocable, but then the incentives are, you can’t get the incentives and the incentives are sometimes pretty steep.
[00:13:47] And because they want you, the insurance companies, which as the other vehicle that you’re allowed to put money aside besides the bank, but they’re giving incentives because they want you to invest. They don’t [00:14:00] expect, or can’t have you go back in a year because your muffler shot, then all those antennas are off the books.
[00:14:06] That’s the irrevocable part. They know they get your money to invest it. And they’re not talking 10,000, they’re talking 10 million or a hundred million because they’re putting it all into one. That’s how they make their money.
[00:14:17] Amber Miller: So at the end, I think it’s important to prearrange and prefund in some way, if you are able to put down the money. So if you, if you have the money, absolutely put it down and that way if now, in two years, three years, five years, you have to go on medical assistance, you have it covered, and your family doesn’t have to worry about the headache or the burden or stress of having to now come up with the funds to pay for funerals or any other funds or issues that come along.
[00:14:45] Pete Waggoner: Prearranging and pre-funding as a benefit to your family, what does that look like?
[00:14:50] Mike O’Connell: Huge. You’re taking away the subjectivity of kids going against each other. I have a hard time looking across the table when [00:15:00] parents have left their kids to pay for their own funeral. That’s just difficult. I would never do it. And you’re just setting them up to heal. I guess that’s really the, we don’t want them to go into detail of the songs and all that.
[00:15:13] The kids need to have some part of the funeral ranging, cuz that’s part of the acceptance and the grieving and the healing part. But you’re setting them up with a foundation heal. Simple as that.
[00:15:22] Pete Waggoner: So it’s no different than if you take out a life insurance policy, you’re really taking out a policy for your kids.
[00:15:29] Not have to pick up the burden of that. Not only just financially, but also making these key decisions that keep this emotion. So it can really go into the grieving process, which we’ve talked so much about in our other podcast. This really frees up the, the whole process for people.
[00:15:47] Mike O’Connell: The one thing too on that Pete is you’ve got, and you talked about insurance, but you’ve got health insurance, life insurance.
[00:15:54] You’ve got home insurance, mortgage insurance, car insurance, all of those are set up in case something [00:16:00] happens, right. That there’s the catastrophe and it kicks in. Funeral trust aren’t that way. There’s not, you pay this and it pays that. It’s not set up like a term policy. You put the money aside, it makes money and it pays for it.
[00:16:14] So they’re much different animals. Cause some people get scared off to say, well, I don’t like insurance. I don’t either. This is an insurance vehicle, but it’s not even close to those. Because some people to get really apprehensive about it and I don’t blame ’em because some you get screwed on, even.
[00:16:28] We had one, I just talked to her yesterday that she has to do it in policy because she got too old and now the insurance companies pulling the rug off underneath her. That’s horrible. But that’s what happens on some of these policies. A funeral trust is you figure out to cost to the funeral. You put that aside or part of it aside, and then make payments or what have you.
[00:16:47] But it’s not like a bait and switch. You put the money aside, it makes good money, it’s there.
[00:16:51] Pete Waggoner: So what kind of advice do you have for people who are thinking about prearranging but not quite sure. Where do I start?
[00:16:59] Amber Miller: Phone call away.
[00:16:59] Mike O’Connell: [00:17:00] Pick up the horn.
[00:17:00] Pete Waggoner: Yeah.
[00:17:00] Amber Miller: Mm-hmm yep.
[00:17:02] I think of the families that I have met with and have talked about prearranging a lot, the good majority of them said, I wish I would’ve done this sooner. Or when they’re making at need arrangements, man, I really wish that mom or dad would’ve done this because this is a lot for me. So even just having the inkling in your head to say, you know what, maybe I should start thinking about that.
[00:17:23] It’s the perfect time to do it. And even if it’s something where maybe you’re not sure the questions to ask quite yet, or maybe you’re just not sure of what type of services you want. Sitting down and having just a broad discussion about some of those things. And going home and having some time to process it and then coming back in and really getting those nitty gritty details in. It’s important. Do it now.
[00:17:45] Pete Waggoner: Is there an age where maybe this should be done because I’m sure you hear, boy, I sure wish my mom or dad would’ve done this ahead of time. So at what point is it a good time to start considering this?
[00:17:59] Amber Miller: Well, it’s [00:18:00] different for everybody, but you know, the sooner you can kind of think about this, the better.
[00:18:04] So for some in their fifties for some it’s at retirement age, in their sixties. And for some it’s sooner than that. So I don’t think there’s ever a time that’s too early. I just know from experience that some people would consider there to be a time that’s too late, especially if you’re having to make some kind of arrangements at a time that you’re just not prepared.
[00:18:25] Mike O’Connell: I was gonna say too, is the vast majority of prearrangements I’ve been in seriously at the end of it. They look and they look at me and they say, oh, this is way better than I thought, what did you expect?
[00:18:35] Pete Waggoner: Yeah. And well, you’re not going through death right now.
[00:18:39] Mike O’Connell: Yeah. But they’re very apprehensive too.
[00:18:41] I mean talk about it. And so, but they, the vast majority looks so far and says, well, this is way better than I thought. And so all we’re doing is talking, and you’re becoming educated. It doesn’t have to be, well, I’m not ready to put money down. Okay. You can come in and just talk about what you want or what you don’t want, and then do the payment another day.
[00:18:59] [00:19:00] You’re becoming educated and there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s always good.
[00:19:04] Pete Waggoner: If I’ve prearranged, can I go back and say, Hey, whoa, I wanna modify.
[00:19:07] Mike O’Connell: Yep. It’s never locked in. I don’t care if you put money down. Okay. You can always change it. If you move, it follows you it’ll always be there.
[00:19:16] Pete Waggoner: What’s my meeting look like. So I get ahold of you guys say, Hey, I wanna do this. What happens there?
[00:19:21] Amber Miller: So like I mentioned, it can be just a sit down and kind of get getting to know you in your values and what you want for your family and for your loved ones. So it can be a broad discussion about, oh, you know, this is my church.
[00:19:34] And, and this is what I’m thinking for services, or it can be as detailed as you know, these are the songs I want. These are the flowers that I want. Here’s the casket or urn that I want. It’s individualized.
[00:19:45] Pete Waggoner: How about if you want the, to be able, so we, we can change what we’ve prearranged mm-hmm if I wanna switch funeral homes, can I do that too?
[00:19:53] And if I did it, let’s say I did it somewhere else. I wanted to switch to here. How does that transfer? Can it?
[00:19:59] Mike O’Connell: It’s [00:20:00] super easy actually. We’d do it for you. You sign a letter, so you never have to talk to the other place. You sign the letter, asking all of your records to be sent there. We’ve done it hundreds of times.
[00:20:11] We’ve done it for cremation societies that did it 20 years ago. And well, now I didn’t know, you guys did cremation and now it’s what we do. And so it’s very simple. You sign the letter, they send it to us. We sit down. and depending on we’ll go over it and, and see what those services are. See if you want to change it, honor it, embellish, whatever you need to do.
[00:20:35] Pete Waggoner: Guessing the meeting is about an hour, right? And when I do that, do I do it at home, over the phone, face to face? I mean, obviously with COVID we had to get creative. What does that look like?
[00:20:49] Amber Miller: It’s whatever you’re comfortable with. We do lots of prearrangements here at our facilities or we go to homes and care facilities as well.
[00:20:56] So if you’re more comfortable in your own space talking about this topic, [00:21:00] great, we will come to you. If it’s something that you wanna come here and take a look at either some of the merchandise we have, or some of the spaces and facilities that are available to you. That’s great too.
[00:21:09] Mike O’Connell: We’re going to somebody’s house this week because quite honestly, they’re dying and they can’t get out.
[00:21:15] And so we’re bringing it to them. They wanna be part of the discussion. So it’s our honor to be able to go to somebody’s house and answer all the questions. That’s a privilege.
[00:21:23] Pete Waggoner: So over the full compass, how does this benefit? We know how it benefits us, the public. How does this benefit you and how does it make you more efficient to better serve in the end?
[00:21:40] Amber Miller: Well, I think it’s helpful to know what you guys are envisioning for the service so that when the death occurs, we can be prepared on our end. I think it brings a lot of comfort to families to know that, okay, this is everything that we discussed and that we’re just gonna follow through with the plans in place.
[00:21:57] And it makes us feel that we’re [00:22:00] doing a good job in serving the family as well.
[00:22:02] Pete Waggoner: Do you guys ever go, oh good. This one’s prearranged. Does that ever come through where you go?
[00:22:07] Mike O’Connell: It does, especially if, you know, there’s a family, that’s had some communication issues or we all know someone that might be difficult. And so that would help.
[00:22:16] Pete Waggoner: Preferable dynamic so to speak. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:22:18] Mike O’Connell: Yeah. If we’re being honest.
[00:22:20] Pete Waggoner: Of course. So you say, okay, that’s kind of nice.
[00:22:22] It sounds like it’s pretty easy.
[00:22:23] Mike O’Connell: It’s super easy. Again, people, it’s funny. They’ll come in. And the first thing they’ll do is like, well, what do we need to do? And I’ll say, well, you called us. It’s not what I think you need to do. It’s what you wanna do. You lead this, you tell me if you wanna put information down or you’re hoping to put service information, then price it and then pay for it. I had the one pre-arrangement Mildred, she came in and all she wanted to do is tell me if I put a Hank in her hand, she’d ha me and she meant it.
[00:22:52] And she walked out. That’s all she said. And she walked out right after that, but that’s all she wanted to do just to make sure. Yep. I mean, she came all the way to [00:23:00] do that and. She got what she wanted accomplished.
[00:23:03] Pete Waggoner: That’s amazing.
[00:23:04] So if I wanted to prepay along with the arrangement, is it a lump sum up front?
[00:23:10] Do you do payments? How do you work?
[00:23:12] Mike O’Connell: That can be either way. So the vehicle, again, we talked about that insurance can be, that there’s a lump sum and you paid all, but some people can’t do that. So then they can do, let’s say every year, they’re gonna put something down. Others say, I want to do every month.
[00:23:29] Something taken outta my check that you can do that. There’s payment plans for every price break for each person.
[00:23:36] Pete Waggoner: That’s awesome.
[00:23:37] That’s really good stuff. So all they need to do is go where to, to start the process.
[00:23:42] Mike O’Connell: O’Connell funeral homes. I mean, it just call us and, and the one nice thing there is, we talked about some of the other insurances when you make payment plans and something happens after after in the third year, they do pay a hundred percent of what you were planning on getting, which is very nice.
[00:23:59] Pete Waggoner: Really [00:24:00] nice.
[00:24:00] Mike O’Connell: Yeah.
[00:24:00] Pete Waggoner: Well, okay. So simple enough, if this doesn’t get the phone ringing I thought we did a very thorough job of covering why this would benefit. And it allows for more than just being organized.
[00:24:11] There’s so many benefits emotionally for the entire family, as we’ve spoken before I had one parent that prearranged. And one that didn’t the one that prearranged, it was a silky smooth, unreal, awesome experience. The one that didn’t was a lot tougher.
[00:24:30] Mike O’Connell: It all gets done, but you’re absolutely right. It puts more stress on the family.
[00:24:34] Pete Waggoner: It does. And it was, it was marked and, and noticeable. So through this guy’s personal experience, do it. All right. You too. Thank you for joining us here on good grief, another great podcast, and look forward to our next one. Thank you so much. Thank you, Pete. Thank you for Michael O’Connell and Amber Miller.
[00:24:52] I’m Pete Waggoner. So long everybody.
